Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

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Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby Eriorguez » Thu, 11th Sep 2014 19:54

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early ... 0.abstract


Still, something is not quite right here, take a look: http://www.skeletaldrawing.com/home/the ... rus9112014
(More accurate that what we knew so far, true, but still somewhat flawed, failed to adress a possible longspined caudal, and yeah, huge media hype; effing Sereno)

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Re: Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby Kovu » Mon, 15th Sep 2014 10:25

...but... JP/// was wrong then? :P
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Re: Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby Legion » Fri, 19th Sep 2014 14:19

Eriorguez wrote:http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2014/09/10/science.1258750.abstract


Still, something is not quite right here, take a look: http://www.skeletaldrawing.com/home/the ... rus9112014
(More accurate that what we knew so far, true, but still somewhat flawed, failed to adress a possible longspined caudal, and yeah, huge media hype; effing Sereno)

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I'm following this very attentively. Now THIS is what makes Spinosaurus trully interesting.
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Re: Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby messagefromdrsattler » Fri, 24th Oct 2014 3:32

that's what they get for making guesses without having any actual bones. *facepalm* its actually hilarious because now this PROVES JP/// was a flop
Remember that chap about twenty years ago? I forget his name. Climbed Everest without any oxygen, came down nearly dead. When they asked him, they said why did you go up there to die? He said I didn't, I went up there to live.
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Re: Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby Eriorguez » Fri, 24th Oct 2014 14:04

Yeah, because assuming the animal was a bunch of vertebrae and a detached snout makes so much sense.

Ever heard of the concept of "educated guess"? Look it up.
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Re: Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby Legion » Sun, 26th Oct 2014 19:36

Eriorguez wrote:Yeah, because assuming the animal was a bunch of vertebrae and a detached snout makes so much sense.

Ever heard of the concept of "educated guess"? Look it up.

I'm still waiting for Spinosaurus arms.
After Ibrahim's hypothesis of quadrupedal land locomotion and the new data he unearthed, I'm really interested in how the forelimbs look like. With such drastic morphological changes from other spinosaurids like Suchomimus and Baryonyx, I doubt its arms remained so alike theirs.
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Re: Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby Eriorguez » Mon, 27th Oct 2014 22:55

They pulled that hypothesis out of their asses tho. We have fragmentary forelimb elements (a phalanx and IIRC a fragment of one of the long bones), and they show NO weighbearing adaptations. Plus, Spinosaurus has a furcula, which is not a good idea for weightbearing (if pushed upwards, it blocks major airways and blood vessels).

They could have looked at pangolins, or how a proper neck and sail reconstruction solves all their supposed center of gravity problems, but I guess they wasted that money on buying dry ice for the presentation.

The new material is awesome, but they are going an extra mile and outright ignoring related research. And pulling stuff out of their asses, like the sail shape.

http://tomozaurus.deviantart.com/art/Ne ... -481837428 for example. Far more logical to evolve than knuckle walking, which is not a good hypothesis.
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Re: Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby Legion » Mon, 27th Oct 2014 23:13

Eriorguez wrote:They pulled that hypothesis out of their asses tho.

Yeah, I know, which is part of why I want more forelimb remains. It'd make or break their hypothesis.
but I guess they wasted that money on buying dry ice for the presentation.

Hey, you can't have a presentation without dry ice.
The new material is awesome, but they are going an extra mile and outright ignoring related research. And pulling stuff out of their asses, like the sail shape.

I actually don't mind they're going all-out with their theories. If there's a time for wild mass guessing, it's now. It won't be long until rationality and more clear data prevail.

edit: I just opened your picture in the OP. Feathered rex, me likey. Although it looks a bit too tall
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Re: Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby Eriorguez » Tue, 28th Oct 2014 4:06

My problem is, they are stating their hypothesis on a scientific paper without providing evidence towards it. Extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence.

For example, they assign the quite short caudal neural spine to the first caudal vertebrae, just because, ignore research that may point out to one of the Stromer spines belonging to a caudal, AND make a fuss out of having found out the true shaper of Spinosaurus' sail. Nope.

Science and Nature don't have room for extensive articles, but even in the suplementary material there is plenty of stuff unaccounted for. A monograph is in the making, but, in any case, some of the claims seem to be lacking on support, and this is a fragmentary animal that was shown to be quite aberrant. More research is needed. Ibrahim is a really enthusiastic scientist, and Sereno is one hell of a showman, so rivers of ink are flowing out of this, but, in any case, there's stuff to come, and the conclusions of this first study are not definite. Spinosaurus being short legged is one thing, but the reconstruction in the paper having it sprawling so it feels shorter legged, and the sail ending abruptly, all in all so its gravity center falls in a way that makes a quadrupedal gait likely (not, due to theropod shoulders) is not quite objective.

Deinocheirus, now that's how you do groundbreaking material that solves a ridle. Of course, Lee, Godefroit, and all the people who have been doing neat coelurosaurian work. Deinocheirus was THE enigmatic dinosaur, and this material showed a VERY different animal from the upscale Ornithomimid it could be reasonably restored as. Yet it does not involve Nat Geo having a touring exposition...

All in all we have a paper. And the paper is slighty lacking. I want the monograph, and more data, more measurements and more scaling.
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Re: Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby Legion » Tue, 28th Oct 2014 20:40

My problem is, they are stating their hypothesis on a scientific paper without providing evidence towards it.

We'll have access to the remains soon enough.

Eriorguez wrote:All in all we have a paper. And the paper is slighty lacking. I want the monograph, and more data, more measurements and more scaling.

And that's why I said that time for wild mass guessing is now.

Yet it does not involve Nat Geo having a touring exposition...

Jurassic. Park. III.
We all know this find got this much coverage because of the exposition the animal got amongst the mainstream public thanks to Horner's little ego trip in the early 2K's.
Were it not for that, it'd get almost as much coverage as Deinocheirus (and, I suspect, nearly as much acceptance).

As for the sail, I'm not too familiar with the mathematics surrounding it, but I don't think the sail's weight is enough to significantly change the COG one way or another regardless of its reconstruction, unless it is a hump and not a sail.

Currently I'm slightly tending towards some errors with the proportions simply because I can't fathom a belly crawler nor quadrupedal Spinosaurus. It'd mean we have a whole ghost lineage of progressively quadrupedal spinosaurinids that, taking Suchomimus and Baryonyx into account, seems unlikely.
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Re: Spinosaurus was weirder than expected.

Unread postby Eriorguez » Thu, 30th Oct 2014 13:28

And IIRC a monophyletic Baryonichinae is still being recovered, so Spinosaurinae split from the lineage that led to Suchomimus about some 35 million years before Spinosaurus. And the fact that Irritator is pretty much a skull, and Oxalaia a bone fragment is not useful for understanding Spinosaurines.

The sail would influence the flexibility of the hip region and tail base, and also act as anchoring points for ligaments (as seen in Deinocheirus and its sacral sail being key for its awkward posture). And shifting the default neck posture was enough to change the COG according to Andrea Cau...
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